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	<title>Comments for William Astle&#039;s General Clutter</title>
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	<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04</link>
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		<title>Comment on English Spelling Reform by lost</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/562/comment-page-1#comment-1017</link>
		<dc:creator>lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jul 2010 15:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/?p=562#comment-1017</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ll freely admit that vowels cause more trouble for writing than reading. I confess that I do not have much experience related to non-native speakers but I do believe that a large percentage of their problems with vowels are related to prejudices from their previous language(s). More precisely, they are trained to distinguish vowels used in their native languages but English makes different distinctions. I have, in fact, experienced that problem going the other way when attempting to learn French in grade school. Vowels that are definitely different in French sound the same to me which lead to some interesting misspellings, something that would be less likely for a native French speaker who would clealy identify the difference.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Perhaps I overstated the matter somewhat but given the significant variability in vowel pronunciation across the English speaking world, I simply cannot see any way around the vowel mess no matter what we do. It might be better to suggest concentration on consonant reform rather than vowel reform for this reason alone.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Regarding foreign loan words, I am certainly advocating respelling any that vary significantly from the usual regular spelling rules. However, doing so wholesale would be less than helpful, especially for words that have become very common. For instance, it is not clear that respelling &quot;tsunami&quot; as &quot;tsoonommee&quot; or some such would be terribly helpful. Still, it seems that many of the older load words have already been respelled since they came before spelling standardization.  Certainly any new borrowings should be respelled rather than brought across unmodified; it would, at the very least, lessen the confusion. I would certainly not object to correction of some of the more egregious departures from English phonetics like &quot;gila&quot; or &quot;jalapeno&quot; which contain consonants that do not follow anything resembling standard English practice.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It is interesting that you bring up etymological links as that is, in my opinion, the primary driving force against respelling loan words. It is not clear to me, however, that there is any particular benefit to maintaining lexical representations of etymological links when doing so introduces confusion for spelling. Indeed, there are counter arguments to such as well, including the fact that many words acquired incorrect etymologies over the years due to coincidental similarities to other words.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I do fully agree that a wholesale overhaul of English would not be helpful. One of the nice things about Modern English is that it has stayed relatively stable for so long. Any spelling reform must occur in a manner that does not completely render older texts undecipherable and this is the biggest problem most proposals have. The proposals make such sweeping changes that it is nearly impossible to transfer between current spelling and the proposed respelling.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As you say, if spelling reform is going to happen, it will happen naturally as part of the normal evolution of English writing, driven by those doing the writing, much the same way the spoken language changes over time. And that is very probably for the best.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll freely admit that vowels cause more trouble for writing than reading. I confess that I do not have much experience related to non-native speakers but I do believe that a large percentage of their problems with vowels are related to prejudices from their previous language(s). More precisely, they are trained to distinguish vowels used in their native languages but English makes different distinctions. I have, in fact, experienced that problem going the other way when attempting to learn French in grade school. Vowels that are definitely different in French sound the same to me which lead to some interesting misspellings, something that would be less likely for a native French speaker who would clealy identify the difference.</p>
<p>Perhaps I overstated the matter somewhat but given the significant variability in vowel pronunciation across the English speaking world, I simply cannot see any way around the vowel mess no matter what we do. It might be better to suggest concentration on consonant reform rather than vowel reform for this reason alone.</p>
<p>Regarding foreign loan words, I am certainly advocating respelling any that vary significantly from the usual regular spelling rules. However, doing so wholesale would be less than helpful, especially for words that have become very common. For instance, it is not clear that respelling &#8220;tsunami&#8221; as &#8220;tsoonommee&#8221; or some such would be terribly helpful. Still, it seems that many of the older load words have already been respelled since they came before spelling standardization.  Certainly any new borrowings should be respelled rather than brought across unmodified; it would, at the very least, lessen the confusion. I would certainly not object to correction of some of the more egregious departures from English phonetics like &#8220;gila&#8221; or &#8220;jalapeno&#8221; which contain consonants that do not follow anything resembling standard English practice.</p>
<p>It is interesting that you bring up etymological links as that is, in my opinion, the primary driving force against respelling loan words. It is not clear to me, however, that there is any particular benefit to maintaining lexical representations of etymological links when doing so introduces confusion for spelling. Indeed, there are counter arguments to such as well, including the fact that many words acquired incorrect etymologies over the years due to coincidental similarities to other words.</p>
<p>I do fully agree that a wholesale overhaul of English would not be helpful. One of the nice things about Modern English is that it has stayed relatively stable for so long. Any spelling reform must occur in a manner that does not completely render older texts undecipherable and this is the biggest problem most proposals have. The proposals make such sweeping changes that it is nearly impossible to transfer between current spelling and the proposed respelling.</p>
<p>As you say, if spelling reform is going to happen, it will happen naturally as part of the normal evolution of English writing, driven by those doing the writing, much the same way the spoken language changes over time. And that is very probably for the best.</p>
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		<title>Comment on English Spelling Reform by Johanna Stirling</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/562/comment-page-1#comment-1016</link>
		<dc:creator>Johanna Stirling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jul 2010 14:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/?p=562#comment-1016</guid>
		<description>This is a very interesting and thought-provoking post. Here are my reactions:
You are absolutely right that GBS’s ‘ghoti’ is complete nonsense as it doesn’t take into account letter placement within a word. I also agree that English spelling is complex but actually reasonably regular. However, I was surprised to read “I contend that it is not the vowels that cause the trouble anyway, but the irregularities with consonants.” Certainly my research with English language learners (non-native speakers) shows many more problems with vowels than consonants when it comes to spelling (encoding) although admittedly consonants may be more misleading when reading (decoding).

As for the spelling of foreign loanwords, are you advocating changing the spelling of new ones only or also those that have already entered the English language. If the latter, how far do you go back? Actually I have recently written a post on The Spelling Blog ( http://thespellingblog.blogspot.com )about this.

My personal take on speling reform is that it’ll either happen naturally, as for example ‘alright’ is certainly gaining ground on ‘all right’ (though I suppose then it’s not called ‘reform’) or it won’t happen at all. The spelling systems of English are so complex that if you mess with one bit you can lose etymological and lexical links with other words. You could argue for a complete overhaul of the language, but then say goodbye to literature in its original language. No thanks!

Johanna</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very interesting and thought-provoking post. Here are my reactions:<br />
You are absolutely right that GBS’s ‘ghoti’ is complete nonsense as it doesn’t take into account letter placement within a word. I also agree that English spelling is complex but actually reasonably regular. However, I was surprised to read “I contend that it is not the vowels that cause the trouble anyway, but the irregularities with consonants.” Certainly my research with English language learners (non-native speakers) shows many more problems with vowels than consonants when it comes to spelling (encoding) although admittedly consonants may be more misleading when reading (decoding).</p>
<p>As for the spelling of foreign loanwords, are you advocating changing the spelling of new ones only or also those that have already entered the English language. If the latter, how far do you go back? Actually I have recently written a post on The Spelling Blog ( <a href="http://thespellingblog.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://thespellingblog.blogspot.com</a> )about this.</p>
<p>My personal take on speling reform is that it’ll either happen naturally, as for example ‘alright’ is certainly gaining ground on ‘all right’ (though I suppose then it’s not called ‘reform’) or it won’t happen at all. The spelling systems of English are so complex that if you mess with one bit you can lose etymological and lexical links with other words. You could argue for a complete overhaul of the language, but then say goodbye to literature in its original language. No thanks!</p>
<p>Johanna</p>
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		<title>Comment on Blog Overhaul by Lost</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/279/comment-page-1#comment-702</link>
		<dc:creator>Lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lost.l-w.ca/v3/?p=268#comment-702</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the note, Tyler.  Would you believe you&#039;re the first to get past the meat-space spam filter I use?
As for the problem with the site, I cannot duplicate it, even with IE8, except if I turn on the compatibility view. Since I have made a conscious decision to not care about IE older than version 8, I will simply not be fixing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the note, Tyler.  Would you believe you&#8217;re the first to get past the meat-space spam filter I use?<br />
As for the problem with the site, I cannot duplicate it, even with IE8, except if I turn on the compatibility view. Since I have made a conscious decision to not care about IE older than version 8, I will simply not be fixing it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Blog Overhaul by Tyler Cranston</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/279/comment-page-1#comment-700</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler Cranston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lost.l-w.ca/v3/?p=268#comment-700</guid>
		<description>Hello William! I hope this email finds you well. I found a problem with your blog template in IE8, the footer is going right through the middle of the page. I can send you a screenshot if you like. Have a good day.

Tyler</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello William! I hope this email finds you well. I found a problem with your blog template in IE8, the footer is going right through the middle of the page. I can send you a screenshot if you like. Have a good day.</p>
<p>Tyler</p>
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		<title>Comment on Government Shenanigans by Lost</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/268/comment-page-1#comment-616</link>
		<dc:creator>Lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://255#comment-616</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;In the months since my last comment on this issue, the government has brought a budget and it has passed. It has a provision for a periodic confidence vote on the status of the stimulus package, however, so the government is not out of the woods yet. However, as time passes, it becomes less likely that a coalition of the opposition parties will be workable. Still, time will tell.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the months since my last comment on this issue, the government has brought a budget and it has passed. It has a provision for a periodic confidence vote on the status of the stimulus package, however, so the government is not out of the woods yet. However, as time passes, it becomes less likely that a coalition of the opposition parties will be workable. Still, time will tell.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Government Shenanigans by Lost</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/268/comment-page-1#comment-615</link>
		<dc:creator>Lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://255#comment-615</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, the prorogation is official. Quite frankly, it gives everyone a much needed breather and time to put some real thought into the economy and so on. I still maintain that the coalition is not interested in good government but rather in gaining power, however, so I expect the budget will fail. That said, a great deal can happen between now and the end of January.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I can honestly say that I agree with the Governor General&#039;s decision to allow the prorogation. After all, the opposition will still get their confidence vote over the budget, we will not have an election campaign or government change over Christmas, and the Conservatives have more than two weeks to figure out what to do about the economy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the prorogation is official. Quite frankly, it gives everyone a much needed breather and time to put some real thought into the economy and so on. I still maintain that the coalition is not interested in good government but rather in gaining power, however, so I expect the budget will fail. That said, a great deal can happen between now and the end of January.</p>
<p>I can honestly say that I agree with the Governor General&#8217;s decision to allow the prorogation. After all, the opposition will still get their confidence vote over the budget, we will not have an election campaign or government change over Christmas, and the Conservatives have more than two weeks to figure out what to do about the economy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Government Shenanigans by Lost</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/268/comment-page-1#comment-614</link>
		<dc:creator>Lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://255#comment-614</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, since I wrote this original post, there has been talk of prorogation of parliament, assuming the Governor General agrees. This would mean that parliament would be put in recess until the new year and budget time. This is, perhaps, the best short term solution since it will allow time for the dust to settle a bit. It could be a problem, though, as it will give the fledgeling coalition time to get organized and possibly gain mindshare with Canadians. Time will tell.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I still maintain my prediction. Prorogation will only delay the fall of Mr. Harper&#039;s government.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, since I wrote this original post, there has been talk of prorogation of parliament, assuming the Governor General agrees. This would mean that parliament would be put in recess until the new year and budget time. This is, perhaps, the best short term solution since it will allow time for the dust to settle a bit. It could be a problem, though, as it will give the fledgeling coalition time to get organized and possibly gain mindshare with Canadians. Time will tell.</p>
<p>I still maintain my prediction. Prorogation will only delay the fall of Mr. Harper&#8217;s government.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Legend of the Seeker by Lost</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/267/comment-page-1#comment-611</link>
		<dc:creator>Lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://254#comment-611</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;After several episodes, I can honestly say that the series is fairly decent. While I am occasionally jarred by differences from the books, I am generally pleased with the result. Of course, my memory is somewhat faulty with respect to the earlier novels so some of what I perceive as differences may be a result of that while I&#039;m an likely missing some of the more glaring differences.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After several episodes, I can honestly say that the series is fairly decent. While I am occasionally jarred by differences from the books, I am generally pleased with the result. Of course, my memory is somewhat faulty with respect to the earlier novels so some of what I perceive as differences may be a result of that while I&#8217;m an likely missing some of the more glaring differences.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Prohibition by Lost</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/259/comment-page-1#comment-594</link>
		<dc:creator>Lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://246#comment-594</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Turns out that I don&#039;t smoke anything. Of course, you just have my word for it. I do know a few people who smoke various things, though.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turns out that I don&#8217;t smoke anything. Of course, you just have my word for it. I do know a few people who smoke various things, though.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Prohibition by Dale</title>
		<link>http://lost.l-w.ca/0x04/archives/259/comment-page-1#comment-593</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://246#comment-593</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;-------------&lt;br&gt;
They would not suddenly go on rampages just because their drug of choice became legally available.&lt;br&gt;
-------------
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
That made me laugh. Very true. Whether or not we agree with the morality behind the activity is beside the point. Which is the better way to control it? Make it illegal and hope it doesn&#039;t happen, or legalize it and regulate it. Good argument...although it makes me wonder if you smoke it&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
They would not suddenly go on rampages just because their drug of choice became legally available.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-
</p></blockquote>
<p>
That made me laugh. Very true. Whether or not we agree with the morality behind the activity is beside the point. Which is the better way to control it? Make it illegal and hope it doesn&#8217;t happen, or legalize it and regulate it. Good argument&#8230;although it makes me wonder if you smoke it</p>
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